Epitaph Records
An interview with Brett Gurewitz
by Scott Hefflon
Just to get it out of the way, tell me how you feel about The Offspring’s move from Epitaph to Columbia/Sony.
I heard they officially changed their name to Lying Sacks of Shit.
I’m sensing a bit of hostility toward them. When I interviewed Noodles (guitarist) last month, he was reasonably fair.
Yeah, I’d heard from Andrew (Olsen, Advertising Director of Epitaph) that you’d interviewed them, and you wanted to give me a chance to tell my side of the story. Journalistic integrity would have called for you to give me my chance to reply in the same article. They talked a bunch of shit about me, and now people read it and think that it’s true.
They had their feature story, and now you have yours. The parting of ways was not the focus of that article, nor is it the focus of this one. I’ve always wanted to know what makes you tick. But why don’t we start with the present and work back. How many releases have you put out total on Epitaph, and what are the most recent?
The Humpers came out recently, R.L. Burnside came out on an affiliated label. Did you know we’re pressing and distributing a blues label now? It’s called Fat Possum, out of Oxford, Mississippi. It’s really cool. We put out a really raw, fucked up blues album called Mr. Wizard by R.L. Burnside. He’s a 70 year old black man from Mississippi. It’s a cool relationship. We do the pressing and distribution – he’s controlling his own destiny.
That’s kind of a stretch for you, isn’t it?
Yeah, but it’s bitchin’.
And you re-issued the Frontier Records stuff as well: Circle Jerks, Adolescents, T.S.O.L., Suicidal Tendencies…
Yeah, but that just makes sense. We also have a new Pennywise record, a new Voodoo Glow Skulls record, a new D.F.L. record, a new Ten Foot Pole record, a new Millencolin record coming next…
Is that a Burning Heart/ Epitaph record, or specifically an Epitaph release?
They’re on Epitaph in the U.S., and they’re on Burning Heart in Europe.
How often do you do that?
Millencolin is the only band we’ve done this with.
So a band like NOFX is exclusive to Epitaph without being Fat/Epitaph or something?
No, they’re on Epitaph.
And you helped release a benefit compilation for AK Press…
Yup, we did that.
And you’ve had some new signings recently…
We signed H2O, we signed Bouncing Souls, we’re currently signing Zeke.
H20 was on Blackout! and Bouncing Souls were on BYO…
Those were just licensing deals, they were never signed. The groups owned their records the whole time, they just licensed them to those labels. And Zeke was signed to Scooch Pooch. We worked out a nice arrangement because Scooch Pooch needed distribution in Europe, and my European people love Scooch Pooch. They’re actually the ones who turned me on to them. We worked out a deal where Epitaph is going to distribute the label in Europe, and in exchange, they’re going to let us do Zeke in the U.S.. I’m also doing a new label with Tim Armstrong from Rancid called Hellcat. We’re in the process of signing ska artists and punk artists, among them are the U.S. Bombs, Hepcat, The Slackers from New York, The Gadgets from Kansas City, The Pietasters…
Any reason why you’re starting another label instead of just signing them to Epitaph?
Well, Tim and I just have a good time making records together. With his background in Op Ivy, he’s way more down with the ska scene than I am. I mean, I enjoy ska music, but he’s the expert. The skalar, if you will. It makes sense to do it together.
Is that going to be manufactured and distributed by Epitaph?
Oh yeah, it’s a partnership. 50/50. It’s the first new label I’ve started since Epitaph. Our first release it called Give ’em the Boot, a sampler coming out in June.
Is it a sampler or a compilation?
What’s the difference, really?
Are all the bands officially signed to the label?
OK, it’s a compilation. Four or five of the bands will be Hellcat bands, and the rest will be diverse bands from the ska scene, all across America. Like The Skatellites, without whom a ska compilation would be incomplete, as well as cool punk rock groups like The Dropkick Murphys from Boston. It’ll also have an unreleased Rancid track on it too. I hesitate to call it a spin-off label, so what would you call it?
I’d call it an imprint. The point is, I really don’t want to diversify Epitaph. I want to keep it true to what it is, and that’s punk rock. I want to diversify and explore different sounds and the way to do that is to start a different label. It’s not like I’m going to go haywire and start a million labels – I like ska music, so I’m going to do a ska label.
What about the total number of releases Epitaph’s put out?
Really, I don’t know. I have about 25 artists.
For which band have you put out the most releases?
I think it’s still Bad Religion, although NOFX is catching up. NOFX might surpass Bad Religion with their next record.
What kind of numbers are we talking about here?
I think I did seven Bad Religion albums.
What about their new album (on Dragnet/Sony, whatever that means), it’s live, I think.
It’s a piece of shit. I haven’t heard it yet, but I hear it’s only got four of my songs on it. I haven’t heard it, I just heard through the Internet that it has four of my songs. When Greg Graffin (vocals) called me up, I told him I was pissed off. I mean, that’s not a fair representation of Bad Religion live. They certainly play more than four of my songs in their shows. It’s kind of a dis.
Going back, how many NOFX records have you put out?
Let’s see: Liberal Animation, S&M; Airlines, Ribbed, White Trash, Two Heebs and a Bean, Punk in Drublic, and Heavy Petting Zoo. That’s six so far, and they’re re-signing now, so that’ll make seven. The same as Bad Religion.
I know it’s ancient history, but what was the deal with switching from your label, Epitaph, to Atlantic while you were still in the band?
Your guess is as good as mine. I think they did it for the money. I was essentially along for the ride at that point. You’ve got to realize, these guys had been my friends for 15 years. For 15 years I played guitar in the band, I ran the label, I recorded the records, I mixed them, I produced them, I manufactured them, I distributed them – I did everything. I even managed the group. And wrote songs and lyrics. There wasn’t much I didn’t do. But the fact is, I owned the label, so it was felt that if I were to hold the group back from this decision they were making (signing with Atlantic), it would have been a self-serving decision. So I pulled myself out of the voting process. There were enough votes to make a majority without my vote, so far be it from me to hold them back or change their course. I figured the ethical thing to do was go along with the group consciousness, not be spiteful, and do my best to write the best record I could. Which I did on Stranger Than Fiction, and I think my writing on that record is some of my best. Then I bowed out gracefully. I didn’t tour for the record, and I never made another one.
What year was that?
1994, I think.
And what year did you start Epitaph?
1987. I mean, I put out a record in ’81, Bad Religion’s How Could Hell Be Any Worse, but it wasn’t really a full-fledged label until I started it back up in ’87.
Which is the Bad Religion record that doesn’t get listed in discographies?
Into the Unknown. It shouldn’t have been called a Bad Religion record. It was really just Greg and myself experimenting in ’83. The rest of the band wasn’t there, and we weren’t playing punk rock. We were just kids goofing, experimenting, having fun and spreading our wings with a new medium we’d just discovered called a recording studio. If we’d called it The Brett and Greg Project, or some other name, ya know, I’d probably have it in print now. As a Bad Religion record, it doesn’t fit. I look at it, in that way, as a mistake. And when people ask why I don’t have it in print, I have to ask, “Why don’t you take one of your mistakes and publicize it to the world?”
Aside from Bad Religion and now The Offspring, you haven’t lost any other bands… I don’t mean lost, I mean no other bands have…
Stabbed me in the back?
Gone elsewhere…
Sold out for the big money?
From what I hear, they took less money from Sony than they would’ve…
Lie! That’s a lie. That’s a bald-faced lie. And what else, creative freedom restrictions? Come on, look at NOFX – look at their album covers, look at the songs they cover – they release entire records between their records for Epitaph on another label. How can I offer a band more creative freedom than that? No band has more freedom than an Epitaph band. To think that the giant, corporate monolith of Sony offers more creative freedom than Epitaph, which is owned and operated by musicians and creative people, is a complete absurdity. The Offspring are trying to rationalize what they did. Sony offered them so many millions of dollars, it’s ridiculous. I don’t have the kind of money Sony does. Basically, Sony came in, offered them more money than I could, I couldn’t compete, and they left.
It wouldn’t have been such a big deal if they’d just said, “We want the money,” like the Sex Pistols did.
Let’s look at reality: What happens every time a band comes from out of nowhere and sells 10 million records? What happens almost every single time is that the next record sells a fraction of that amount. Like Pearl Jam, Green Day, Spin Doctors, Vanilla Ice, and Nirvana. It’s almost a given. The Offspring could almost count on that happening. Therefore, the moment they completed Smash for me, they knew, and their manager made sure to tell them, that they were at the moment in their career where they had the optimal ability to cash in for the most money.
They were suddenly worth more money than they’d ever been worth before, and more than they’d be worth again.
Exactly. If they’d released their next record on Epitaph and it sold two million, they’d never be able to go to Sony and get the big bucks. So they cashed in their chips when the cashing was good.
Honestly, as a businessman yourself, do you blame them?
Do I blame them? Well, I don’t… Well, yeah, I do blame them. I’ve turned down blood money many a time. I turned down 50 million dollars for half of my company because I believe in something. They sold out everything punk rock ever stood for. I do blame them. Fuck yes. I have principles, brother, and I don’t care what the little crusties down the street say. Those Offspring fuckers are going around smearing my name. They’ve gone to the big, mainstream magazines and told them I’m more phony than Tommy Mattola, the president and CEO of Sony Music. And that’s just absurd. They’re only making themselves look like jackasses. The more mud they sling, the more they get on their own shirt. They aren’t fooling anyone, and their new song sounds like The Scorpions.
But “All I Want,” hell, I can’t stop singing it.
Sure, it’s a great Bad Religion song. The best one in years.
How do you feel about that, being a party to the continuing saga of ripping off what you originally helped start? What are we on now, fourth generation Bad Religion?
Yeah, but every once in a while a group comes up with something that’s really brilliant and original, and that’s what makes it all worth it. But I also look at one of my favorite bands, the Ramones, and the repetition works.
How old are you?
Thirty-four.
Do you find it hard to “stay punk” when you’re in your 30s and you’ve run your own business, especially in the music industry, for as long as you have?
It’s not hard, really, because I have a simple code of ethics that I follow. Epitaph works for the artist. A record company is nothing more than a service company. A recording artist hires us to do the job of making the record and putting it in the stores for them, and doing it in a way that is specialized to fit their needs. As long as we keep in mind that we work for them, we can never go too far astray. Even if I’ve forgotten what it feels like myself, there are always young punk bands to remind me what it’s all about. We work for them. That’s not just a platitude, it’s very real and everyone I hire understands that core philosophy.
